The Audible-Ready Sales Podcast
The Audible-Ready Sales Podcast

Episode 76 · 2 months ago

An Interview with John McMahon Part 2

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Part 2 of our conversation with Author and Sales Leader Veteran John McMahon. He joins John Kaplan to discuss themes in McMahon's new book, “The Qualified Sales Leader”. McMahon has been the Chief Revenue Officer at five public, enterprise software companies – PTC, Geo-Tel, Ariba, BladeLogic and BMC. Now he sits on the board at several public software companies including Snowflake and MongoDB.

More Information:

- BUY THE BOOK: The Qualified Sales Leader

- https://amzn.to/3zOwQt9  

- How to Ensure You’re Selling for a Great Company

- https://bit.ly/3i9RTQN  

Check out this and other episodes of The Audible-Ready Podcast at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website. 

I see a lot of the first time managersthat they just glorified score keepers, that they never understand the. Why orhow come my people aren't successful and what are they doing the coach himto be better? You are listening to the audible, ready,podcast. The show that helps you and your teams sell more faster willfeature sales leader sharing their best insights on how to create a salesengine that helps you feel repeatable revenue growth presented by the team F,forced management, a leader in bt sales affecting this. Let's get started hello and welcome to the audible, readysales podcast, I'm Rachel clapier. Today, Parto of John Caplin'sconversation with John Mc man. We walked through the concept of his newbook, the qualified sales leader. It's a great conversation. It's a great bookhere we go enjoy. You told me: A lot of people have been following up with youpost the books that they've read the book they're reaching out to you linkedin or through emails and they're, asking you questions like Hey John.What does this really look like in you know? What should I be looking for? Ina company and one of the things you said a little bit, but I want to pullit out of you right now. You simplify things really well, I think when youtalk about just having an understanding of the three wise, what do you mean bythe three wish? Well, it's two two cases for using thethree wives right. So first is: If someone stands up in front of me andsays you know, I'm going to tell you about my forcas and they go. Let's talkabout ABC account. I'm not really going to take themthrough the qualification methodology of Med pick yet, but I am going to askhim the three wise I'm going to ask them. First of all, tell me why thecustomer has to buy. Why do they have to buy and what I'm looking for? Thereis. What is a major? Have they figured out a major quantifiable pain that thecustomer has and that pain has to be what I call pain above the noise right,because companies have hundreds and...

...hundreds of pains that they can livewith every day? Just like you and I we stub our toe, you break a finger nail.We hit our finger with a hammer, we cut, we slice our finger and we can put aband an on. We can live with those types of pinions, but if I fall downoff my bike and I separate my shoulder and break a couple ribs and I have aconcussion- that's going to require a third party attention. So where is the?Are we looking for pain? That's above the noise really high, quantifiablepain right. So then, if I have really highquantifiable pain, what I really want to know there is what job measure does that affect likewho suffers in the organization and what suffers and what I mean by that iswho's the person that suffers the most because their job measure suffers themost. And then that tells me that that's the ideal person that we have toget to right, so that's the why you have to buy now what about thenext one is: What do they have to buy from us? Can't they do this some other way. Youknow. Are there other more ideal solutions to solve this pain than ourproduct? So tell me how our ideal, unique or a unique differentiatorsalign perfectly to the pains that they have and solve those pains and solvethose pains in a way in which we can quantify the cost justification anddrive a really high average deal size because the customers getting a lot ofquantifiable business value on their side, so we should be able to drive apurport in proportion. A higher average deal size and the last one is tell mewhy they got a buying. Now, why is the pain so urgent that they have to buynow? Why can't they wait and a lot of times as people say? Well,we're going to buy the by the end of the quarter, be. Why are they going tobuy by the end of the quarter? Just because it's our quarter, you know tell me why they have to buynow. Why is the pain so intense that...

...they have to do it now, love it in thebook? I I light that in yeah and then I like that in Medick and theidentification of pain, you're looking for the pain above the noise, that'swhen you're, loving, torn met pick right. I love that pain above the noise.In the second way in which I use the three wise is when companies ask me Hey,can you come be an advisor? Could you be a consultant? Could you be a boardmember whatever it is? You know I don't come out directly andask of the three wise, but it's disguise you know in the conversation,but I'm basically asking the three wise, because why is that important? I wantto know when this company selling their product, what do the sales people sayacross the table from the customer and if they can't answer those three wiseit's time for me to look at my watch and get out right so powerful? Let'srecap those three wise said John. I think that's so powerful, first one,why, by anything? Second, one, why buy from you and three is wide by and butno I by anything it has to be. Why do I have to have to buy yeah yeah?Are you word Smith Right? Remember, Word Smith at me: Do nobody re a littlebit because it's? Why do I? I is this a forecast session you're not going toaccept what I told you: okay, go ahead, I'm going to qualify, you I'm the qualified sales leader. Yes,you are no! It's listen to the words why do I have to buy so they have to buy is whateverybody hears. That means that there's a pain but remember what I saidis we also have to identify who that eye is, I love t uppers and what jobmeasure suffers right and then why do they have to buy from us because we'reuniquely qualified and differentiated to solve in and why did they have tobuy now now I love that, and I and that's a bigpoint in your book when you're talking...

...about pain above the noise intimacyaround aligning people with the right accounts, there's knowledge, skills andcharacter associated with that and when you're looking at a forecast, thepeople have those types of accounts on a forecast where the pain is supposedto be above the noise, but they don't have the skill set to get above thenoise and you're managing a forecast and looking down at a Rep. that's on anaccount that is going to that's going to need that it's where the whole storycomes together and that Qr it's so as a last one. Why do have to buy a house?You know we can also ask in the different like what are the negativeconsequences of them. Not Buying what yeah, what happens yeah so what rightright! So if I fell down off my bike and I had to separate a shoulder ofthree broken ribs and I was cut up- and you asked me well what happens if hedoesn't go to the hospital now I mean we can think about it very specificallyright, and that should be the same thing in a sale situation. What happensif they don't buy now, what's to negative consequences, really gooddonny, really really good. We're going to link in the show notes, aconversation that you myself and centrical at a town hall or firesidechat. I think we called it fromond and it was such a joy because I know a lotof people are asking Hey John. Where do I find like companies that do this andand more importantly, I think they were saying how do I know I'm looking at?How do I know I'm looking at a great company and just for the listeners, Ithought that you did a incredible job in that in that fireside chat. Youtalked about great technology companies with great technology companies withlarge and fast growing markets, and then this third one, which might havesurprised some of the listeners that were thinking about asking thatquestion, O companies that invest significantly in employee developmentand that's really sums up what you've done your whole career. Do you have anycomments on that? We first, I think you know, I still think of myself as astudent of the game. I think the day...

...that you think that you're, you knoweverything about sales. I mean it's. I you're going down you're, not going upanymore right, so you have to think of yourself as a student of the game and what are all the subtleties? What areall the idiosyncrasies of the game and the more that you can try to masterthose, whether that's knowledge or a lot of times, it's a skill, the betteroff you're, going to be not only as a performer, but also as a great coach orgreat leader. So I tell people you have to look at the market size. How big isthe market? Does it and how many competitors are in that market, theother market? That's a billion dollar market and his ten competitors in he isnot a lot of room for I right right m a choir comes in and picks one of themare two of them, the other aiter in dire straits right. So how big is themarket? Because that floats a lot of boats you and I were at a companycalled pts and we were selling cad cam and we went from zero to one point: onebillion and nine years. But what happened? The market was only two and ahalf billion, so we ran out of space really quickly. So markets is importantmarket growth. You know those types of things, but if you really want to be astudent of the game, you really want to learn. You really want to grow. Tell mehow much more, how much they're investing in training and developingtheir people that's so important. I love that and I think that it comes out in theexpectations of the play book that you highlight so well and the book thequalified sales leader. So now it's test time ready. So you know I'm gonna,I'm doing a little test ere. Now your test, you're testing me- and these havething when I was working for you. These didn't go so well, so you might have togive me a break, but you told me: I wanted to turn sideways, storing aforcat yeah and it's getting harder and harder for a guy like me to turnsideways buddy. So that's a problem, but here might take ways for your bookI'll. Try. I really really love for me and I could hear you saying this. Youand I have known each other R for...

...twenty five years and I was very veryblessed to work for you and to work in the organization that you were leading.So here my big takeaways you. I remember you saying to me if you wantto be successful- and this was in a interview in a Denny's in Detroit.Remember it well yea! Well, I remember it because I'm not sure you looked atme through the entire interview you were looking outside and I don't knowwhere you teach that and recruiting high chain, but I was thinking you saidyou're supposed to be present, but you're looking at they were. There wasa bunch of cranes outside that you were looking at you an always. I just thinkvery carefully what you said and qualify getting ready for my nextqualified question: Okay, okay, but here's what you told me- and it wasincredible- you said: Do you want to be successful in this job? John? You haveto be a voracious qualifier. Yes, that term came from you and I think aboutwhat that created at pts forty three straight quarters, ten plus years ofnever missing the number to Wall Street John. Have you ever seen anything likethat before n? No, no! Never I do you thinkit. I mean I hope somebody's going to do it. Maybe they'll read your book andthey'll be able to break the record, but that's something o Dat. Do It yeah?That's an incredible, and I'm not talking about sandbagging. I'm talkingabout double digit, profitable re revenue growth, but the takeaways fromme voracious qualifier. The other thing that you said to me is you have totrust the process. You have to accept that we've puttogether a process. That's going to lead you to a great outcome and John,you probably don't remember this, but you actually drew it on a Napkin. Youdrew the sales process on a Napkin and you said- and I said, okay so you'retelling me that's all. I have to do to be successful here to pet DC and yousaid yeah and he said, but a one caveat, and I said what and he you said: If youskip any of these steps, you ain't going to make it here. I can guaranteeyou that you said if I follow this I'll...

...make three times the amount of money Iwas making it Xerox B. If I don't follow it, I won't have a job and yeah.I fail and that's a takeaway from me and you highlight some greatqualification. You have great mechanics. You encourage companies to reallyidentify a solid sales process, who's doing what, when by role by customerbuying stage, and it's a huge takeaway from me and the last one was recruitinga players and then coaching and developing them to the playbook. Those are the three takeaways that Ihad from the book. I probably the reason why I had those takeaways isbecause I experienced them at pts with you to just outstanding results for acompany. Would you highlight any others that just jump out at you, I'm tryingto summarize them the top three? Do you have any others that you not like toomany? First Ling Managers said that are first time. First line managers managedthrough activity, K pis. I see that all the time and and there's nothing wrongwith, you know, keep in school. I call them in the book glorified scorekeeper and the reason I do is because allthey're doing is managing activity, so that would be equivalent to like ahockey coaching, hey. We've took forty eight shots on net tonight. Okay, butdid you win? The game? Did any go in or a baseball coaching. You know JohnCaplin. Today he got up four times. He took three swings each time, so a totalof twelve swings great did he get any hits and if he didn't get any hits, whyhow come? What did he do right? What did he do wrong? What does he mean towork on? What does he mean to practice? What does he need to know those typesof managers aren't curious, they're, not trying to understand the. Why orthe how come, and I think that great sales leaders are managing deal advancement deal progression now.Why did that deal move from step to in...

...stage to to step three in stage to orwhy did it not move and what is Caplin doing right or wrong that doesn't allowhim to ever get past that step? What skill does he need and knowledge as heneed to get to the next step right? That's really what I think I see a lotof the first time, managers that they just horrified score keepers, but theynever understand the. Why or how come my people aren't successful and whatare they doing the coach in to be better, tell me the story. We had a belly laughover a sandwich a couple o weeks ago, when we were remembering back in theday when you got on a forecast, call, don't say the name of the personbecause I'm sure they're a listener. So when you got nobody actually wasn't aforecast call but go ahead. Yeah! Oh No! That's right! You were calling. Wellyou tell the story. You tell the story by and is calling highlight when I buthigh light the glorified sales, a score keeper, alsolacks intimacy of knowledgeand may be to me, maybe being curious. So I guess second line, maybe even third linemanager at the toe and on one of the biggest deals on its forecast. Maybethe biggest deal on his forecast and it was a pharmaceutical company in NewJersey, and I asked him about the deal and he said well, the REP said. Then hetold me a bunch of stuff. So I call them the next week and I said:Hey how's, that deal gone at the pharmaceutical company. Well, the REPsaid, and he told me again so then I took the phone and I said what the Hell Do. I need you for then. I hung on the phone and he called me back over the courseof the next three days, but I never picked up the phone. I let him stir inthe fact that he was not intimate with his people and not intimate with thebiggest deal on his forecast and if he...

...wasn't super intimate with the biggestdeal in his forecast, then that meant he wasn't intimate with any of thedeals in the podcast right. You could almost think that that jump well. Thenext week when I called- and I said how's that deal going at thepharmaceutical company, you would have thought that person was a sales rap.Now you would have thought he was working at the pharmaceutical Cole doesOrchart Company. He was now intimate with the deal, so you know. Otherwise what do you need?Those people for, if they're, just going to keep score and they're goingto fly a desk they're going to get behind the desk and look like they'rereally important, but they never really working on anything they're, nothelping their people, coaching their people they're not trying to move dealsalong. Then you know what do you really need for so many Golden Nuggets inthere? John? So again, the book is called the qualified sales leader byJohn Mc man. Build Amazon, downloaded order it. What have you but get on itas soon as you can? I think it will be a fantastic outcome for you, brothers,we wrap up. Is there anything we haven't talked about or anything thatI've that I didn't ask you that you would have expected me to ask you, asit relates to just some of the impact of this book. I think we talked aboutit. I mean to be a great sale, so you we talkedabout the fact they have to be in the moment you have to yeah. Here you haveto listen. o Ye have to be a great qualifier. You have to be a student ofthe game and most of all, you have to be selfless right. You have to decidethat it's about everybody else, it's not about you and then, when thosepeople are successfully you'll be successful right. So I think that's abig part of making sure that people understand. You know what you need todo to be successful as a leader. I love it so brother, it's hard to believeI've known you for twenty five years. Hiring me at P. TC, absolutely changedme in my family's life. I'm going to be serious here for a little bit. I don'tknow if I've ever. I don't know if I've...

...ever had the chance to really say thisto you. So thank you for that Ye. Well, I'm helping US launch force managementgrant and I both grant Wilson the CO founder force management, both of uswork for you back in the day at p DC, helping US launch force management withintroductions into your journey or helping us pulling US along with yourjourney. At Blade Logic, MC MON go DB, snowflake OCTON. The list just goes onand on and on and now John just a little bit selfishly in a way. This book hasbenefited force management tremendously. As you know, you've been telling peopleand we also, I got an email the other day from somebody. That said, I spoketo John McManus and he basically said if you want to learn how to implementthis play book at Your Company Call The folks at force management- and I justcan't thank you enough for you up for sure, yeah the for the continuedsupport. You just been a great great supporter, okay, so folks, if you havenot purchased the book, do it now the qualified sales leader written by themost impact enterprise sales leader on the planet nobody's done it better thanmy good friend John macmann brother. I hope to see you soon, fishing yesing inthe plestor. I need a little bit of time because some of those donuts that I've been neath that Lanorian, I your casting you're hurtingit. I know I'm a little weak since our last accountability session, but I willbecause you qualify me on what I'm eating and how I'm working out, but Ican't wait to see again soon those Christy creams brother, I'm going toI'm going to hey brother. Congratulations on such a greatcontribution to think our line of work to the market place. The qualifiedsales leader is just an a plus effort. Congratulations thanks. Both at forcemanagement were focused on transforming...

...sales organizations into elite teams,are proven methodologies, deliver programs that build company alignmentand fuel repeatable revenue grown. Give your teams the ability to execute thegross strategy at the point of sale. Our strength is our experience. Theproof is in our results. Let's get started visit us at force. ManagementCom. You've been listening to the audible, ready podcast to not miss anepisode subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until nexttime, E T.

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