The Audible-Ready Sales Podcast
The Audible-Ready Sales Podcast

Episode 61 · 9 months ago

Lessons Learned in Sales W/ Patrick McLoughlin


This episode is the first in our new podcast series “Lessons Learned in Sales”, John Kaplan talks with Senior Director of Consulting and Facilitation Patrick McLoughlin about his own career including:

- The lessons he’s learned from some great managers and the mantra he uses today

- The worst mistake he ever made

- The time a colleague stole a prospect’s glasses

This is a conversation you don’t want to miss!

Here are some additional podcasts featuring PaddyMac:




Check out this and other episodes of The Audible-Ready Sales Podcast at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

And you know what he does.He reaches across the table and he knows the glasses off the customers day.You're listening to the audible ready podcast, the show that helps you and yourteam's sell more faster. will feature sales leader sharing their best insights on howto create a sales engine that helps you fuel repeatable revenue growth, presented bythe team at force management, a leader in vtb sales effectiveness. Let's getstarted. Hi, it's Rachel with the audible ready sales podcast. Today weare going to be launching our new series lessons learned in sales. We're askingsome sales veterans five questions about where they've been and what they learned in theirsales career. For this episode, John Kaplan talks with force management senior directorfor Consulting and Festilitation, Patrick McLaughlin. Hey, it's my great pleasure andhonor to introduce to our listeners today Patrick mcgoughlin, better known as Pattie MACand Patty Mac. I'm really, really looking forward to this conversation today.Thanks for sentence some time with us. Sure thing, John, happy tobe here. Hey brother. So, before we get started, tell usa little bit how you. How did your first come beforce management? Oh, well, Brian Walsh. As many of you know, I spend mycareer at Xerox Corporation and happened to work with Brian and be around Brian formany years. That would be another podcast tell and telling Brian Walsh stories.Brian reached out to me about five years ago and he knew that I waspointing my career. I was looking to make some some decisions and some moves, and he said, Hey, we did you'd be a great fit.Why don't you come in and meet with John and maybe with the team andgrant and Dave and the rest of the organization? And you know what,when I came in a force I felt the same type of family and atmospherethat I had multiple times of my career. Entire team focused on one problem,all built on working together, and I was like wow, I'm nota big person in to change. So leaving Zeros was a very difficult decision. I can tell you they'll have to pull pull me out kicking and screamingto get me to lead force management now. But that's why I ended up hereat force. And Yeah, I remember that first that first meeting thatwe had, that you and I had, I just looked at you and Isaid this person is going to be perfect at facilitation for force management.So tell us a little bit about some of the career jobs that you hadat Zer Rox that kind of got you to this point with your great experience. Yeah, so, so the so the big thing for me, John, was even just getting into sales to begin with, right, and whenI graduated from college it was like for me it was big on, likewhat am I going to do? I probably wasn't as driven and focused asI was later on in my career, probably to the display of my parents, but a friend of my parents had me take the Myers break test andit came back that I should look to do sales and I was like,okay, that's what I'm going to do, knowing anyone work behind a desk.So I started out working for a...

...sales agency of zerox corporation and Ihad ZIP codes. I co called every day. I mean I, youknow, did that for for a number of years and then and then eventuallycame along to rox corporations and account manager and then just things naturally pivoted tosales management, to a variety of different roles. I think people always wonderwhy I spent twenty five years at Zerox. The reason is because I had newchallenges and I worked with great people. I think everything that we do incompanies is the people that we do it with, and I just thinkabout the people that influence my career and help develop me and to the salespersonI was that first day that I walked in the Apex Communications and that likelast day that I left as a vice president in the southeast United States,was pretty pretty impactful. Yeah, it's a I think most of the listenersknow I spent time at Zerox as well and the company is such a greatbackdrop for people like you and I because of the great experiences. Like backin the day they were the sales training company and the training that we receivedthere. I like to tell people I kind of got my I got myundergraduate in sales at zero Rox and I got my you know, I gotmy MBA or my doctorate in sales from PDC. But zr host was alegit great culture, great experiences, great people and they did such a greatjob preparing us for for a sales career. So so we'll talk about yeah,let's talk about that a little bit. Dude, like you know, I'msure that you at thinking back on your sales career. One of thequestions I want to ask you is, and I don't mean to catch offguard on this, but, like you know, the highs and lows therethe like. What is the worst mistake you ever made in a sales job? Oh, I probably could go on and on about deals and things thatI did strategically attack tactically wrong. That's a good question. You know thatmy biggest mistake, John, I stayed in sales jobs too long. II got too comfortable, I got too focused on the short term gratification,meaning that I had worked on deals, developed a territory and then someone camealong and said Hey, patty, would like to promote him move you intoa new position. I said, well, I don't want to do that.I know I've cultivated this farm. Now I want to reap the rewardsof the of what I've done in it. And you know, as much asmy loyalty and my being comfortable where I am, I think it probablywas detrimental and my skill set development. I think people were coming to melooking for me to develop skill sets, and I did. I'm not.I'm not saying and I missed out, but maybe I did. Maybe Imaybe I could have done more things if I taken on more responsibility earlier.So looking back on it, I probably...

...would say I probably should have lookedat the long term goals a little bit more carefully versus reacting to the shortterm successes that I was focused on. You know, that's it's that's sorelevant and I think it's a betch that happens to a lot of our listeners. I suffered from the same thing and in the sense that it was alwaysreally hard for me, like you build the team or you get a greatterritory and you know they'd move you and it was always it was kind oflike, you know, I just learned how to play a position and nowI want to be you know, I want to become an Allpro, Iwant to get the accolades, and it's like, you know, first youlearn how to swim and then you're feeling comfortable in the pool and the nextday your brothers, you know, grab you and they throw you in thedeep end. It's now Kate's time to learn how to swim in the deepend and I didn't even get to enjoy the sunshine in the in the kiddiepool or what happ yeah, exactly. That's interesting. In in you know, I think that just as you as you go. What kind of advicewould you give to the listeners that as the people that are in that they'rethey're in that situation right now. They're just looking at they go, howdo I know when it's the right time to when it's the right time tomove? Yeah, so I guess. I guess the thing is someone oncesaid to me that when a pilot it gets in a plane, they're alwayslooking for that run way. They're always looking for where they're going to goin case something happens like so I'm not trying to take it from a badperspective. I guess my my biggest thing was I remember when I became asales manager, I didn't think I could do it. I remember when Ibecame a DP, I didn't think I could do it. I remember whenI came to force management and as a facilitator, I was more scared myfirst facilitation than I was my first sales call. And then the vice thatI got and why I decided to come to the force management was I wasweighing a job from another technology company and force management. Probably don't know that, but now you do. And I was on a golf course in Florida, the TPC. It's saw grass, and an executive was with, friendof mine, was a big executive in a major bank. I told himthe two option. He says, what's the difference? As it will theother job. I can stroll into and do this job scares me to death. And he says take the job that's scared you to death because it'll keepyou on edge. So I would say to people all the time if you'recomplacent, if you can do it, if you're if you don't have anelement of fear that's driving you or you're learning, that that's where you wantto be going to, because then it makes it more fun, because thenwhen you accomplish things, God rewards are great. Like I love what wedo on a daily basis. Yeah, you know, Dude, that sucha great point. I think the I think the the neural science around thatwould say that when you're challenged, it actually creates energy for you and whenyou're not challenged and you can it's not. The people are trying to be complacentout there. It's just like if you can get up in the morningand do your job with your eyes closed,...

...but in the but the caveat isyou don't get energy from it, then that's a bad spot to bein. And what I love when I see you every day or when Iwish I could see every day. Hopefully, post pandemic times we can get backto seeing each other every day. But, like you always say tome, I can't believe that they pay me to do this job. Andwhat, yeah, what that always told tells me about you is that youare getting energy from the job. The job is not taking your energy.So you yeah, so my story and put it into a learning event forthe people that are listening. So thanks for doing that. Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it's great advice, because I think people areif you're sitting out there right now and you're listening and, like the company, just when you start to get comfortable and you start k now, I'mgoing to really make my money and I get to play my position and havea great year and and they pull you number one. You know, thinkabout the company. WHO's pulling you out of that job where they haven't realizedthat benefits of you in that job, and that should really tell you liketheir thought process. If they think you can do the next job, sometimeswhy don't we think we can do the next job? So it's a reallygood kind of contemplation. Those are good problems to have. Absolutely I've reallybeen looking forward to this question. What's the funniest thing that's happened about asales call? Oh Gosh, so Rachel told me that you're going to askyou that question because she wanted to give me some time and repair and Igot was in the card. I was thinking, oh my gosh, whatam I going to do? And then one story popped in my mind andI can't top it, so I'm going to tell it. I was probablymy third year sales. I had first two years. First year I gotmade plans. Second year I make Presidents Club things. You're going really good. Third Year I'm just clicking. I'm like I got this, I gotthis down and I got involved in a pretty large, high volume, midvolume opportunity with a publishing company outside of Washington DC. And you know,back in the day at Sieros we had sales specialist that handled certain product linesthat would support us on those sales calls and those opportunities. They were expertsin the competition, the marketplace, the functions, features and productivity and deviceswe were selling. So his name was Ark Chris Folly, because I'm goingto make art listen to this podcast. So art says, Hey, I'lljust meet you in Maryland at the account. I said okay, Great. Sowe show up at the account and we're doing our precaell plan in theparking lot and he says show me the proposal. We get to the product, we get to the pricing and the benefits page, to the business outcomeswe were selling and he's looking for his glasses. He can't find his glasses, so he says, let me see it goes. I can't read this, and he's like, listen, you got to do it just when youget to these things. You got to hammer home the required capability business outcome. You know this is a competitive account. You got to just drive this thinghome. Now this is a twenty... year a veteran that had eightypercent of his career was president's Club, and I'm like, all right,I got it. I got it and likes we practice it. He saidpractice it, practice it. So we're practice in it and were doing inthe call and we're in a room that's probably only big enough for two people. We have three people and a round table and I get to the businessoutcomes page and I start doing exactly like I did in the parking lot andart doesn't like a thing that I'm doing. So you know what he does?He reaches over and he grabs my glasses off my face and he startsreading the proposal. Now here's the worst part about it, John. Ionly read, I only have glasses on because I need a Rolph by agefor reading and seeing the screen. But at the time I was near sideof me. I can't see far. Well, art was far at sighteds. He couldn't see near so the glasses were complete mess up. So artis now aggravated to the point that he's going to explode. And you knowwhat he does? He reaches across the table and he goes the glasses offthe customers day and I'm like, I can't believe he didn't even ask permissionand he said these don't work either. Right. So the client, youknow, the customer says. The customer says one, give me the proposal, customer goes. I'll read the line and you tell me what you wantto tell me. Oh good, Lord to give me the outcome. Giveme the outcome. Yeah, now, here's the army of it. Wedidn't win that deal. We did win that deal, but it is deadto this day. It was just like. It's just like, and we wereall like, you know, not to say I mean. You know, I mean arts a little older than I was, and I get thinkthe customers a little older than art so, which is three generations of men,and the glasses were going around the table like buddy stopped. I couldn'tstop laughing. That is awesome. That is awesome. So, art,if you're listening, let us know what if you did lay six or whathappened after that? I thought you're going to tell me that you you wantedto look older, so you had glasses that had no power in them orwhatever, and you grab I love that. That's a great one, Dude.Hey. So so, tell me on that vein, thinking about youknow, great sellers, great sales leaders that you work with in your career. Like tell me your memory or best recollection of the best sales person,the best sales leader you worked with. Okay, so his name is aRickens Alice. Rick is retired now in Atlanta, Georgia, and Rickens Alhas. Brian and I worked for Rick at one point in our career.Rick taught me that everything about selling was everything you did up front. Hecould scope a deal, he could attach to the biggest problems. He taughtus that winning a deal was everything you did and the first thirty percent ofthe deal, how you set up your differentiation, how you set up theoutcomes, how you got to high level people. I mean Rick knew howto put a deal together, he knew... to negotiate, he knew howto create value that didn't cost us anything in negotiation. He taught me everythingthat I did was in the beginnings of a sale cycle and it was allabout strategy. And then the other thing that he had was he had agreat sense of empathy and curiosity with customers, regardless of the level he met with. He made people feel important. I actually learned something from them thatI read which actually became a mantra of Patty Max, the other person thatwas of powerful influence to me, and I've told as many times. Duringsales trainings was a lady named Mary K. Now you may have heard of MaryK cosmetics. I never met Mary Kay, but Mary Kay had asaying for every person you meet in your life, pretend they have a signaround their neck that says make me feel important. If you do that,you will not only exceed in sales but life. And Rick taught me that, and so that's something I've tried to bring the force management, both internallyand externally. Every day, every person that I need, I try tomake them feel like they're the most important person in the world. But Ilove that. I love that. and Do you thinking about the listeners thatwe have now with all of the hopefully we got some good news of,you know, coming out a pandemic? But it's been like a long,long year and and these ricks, they're all around us and I used toforce myself to look around me and look for uncommon people, and there's alot of people doing things that I don't want to replicate and then there's veryfew the uncommon, the uncommon amongst the uncommon that, you know, Iwanted to look out for and to replicate some of their behaviors. There's anold saying, I think, that I heard while I was at Xerox.I think it's says you are you become in sales over time. You becomea culmination of the best people that you ever worked with or work for,and it's not that you're copying, people are imitating, people are not notbeing authentic, but it's your you become the manifestation of some of the greatexamples that people have shown to you. So hats off to rick out there. Get to get him to listen to this too. Well, I dothat for sure. Yeah, Hey, brother, that takes us to thetakes us to a another question that is in the last questions we wrap uphere. What's the best piece of sales advice that you've ever got that youdon't often hear? Yeah, that's a that's a really good question and I'dlike to tell it in a story, but I think that so many timeswe, as sales professionals, and this is a profession, what we dofor a living, matters, were really good at it. I heard yousay that and it's it's been it's been pounded into my ears by you fora long time. Like what we do...

...matters and I think is as sellersis we look at our opportunities as sales opportunities and they're more than that.Their business opportunities. It's a business opportunity for us, is the vendor,and also business opportunity for the prospect and great selling is merging those interests onboth sides. And I think so many times I see sellers trying to figureout how to position their solution as a competitive advantage, negotiating, giving thingsaway, doing things. I think that you look at every opportunity. Isthe customer has a right to say no to you and you know, ifyour pipelines held, that you have a right to say no to the customerto some extent. But I think we need to look at it is isthat we've got to do deals that are good for us, our company andour you know, our compensation, and we have to make sure the dealsare right for our customers. From the business problems they saw and one ofthe biggest lessons I had was I was chasing a law firm in Washington DCand it was a big law firm and I had a champion, I highranking champion, and they sat me down and told me exactly what I neededto win the deal, terms and conditions that the managing partner wanted, pricing, everything that was it was a total package and I came back and Ididn't know if I was gonna be able to do it, and that withmy sales manager, and my manager was like yeah, I think we canpull this off. So we called this contracts lady. Your name is LindaFairchild, and you probably heard me talk about Linda, and she put togetherthe contract and he decent door office and so I drove over to another building, I walked into her office and she goes, congratulations, young man,and she handed me the document and I said, Oh, thanks, Lindaso much. And, as I you know, if as I grasped adocument, she didn't let up and I said and she's like, well,what are you going to give me? And I said, what do youmean? She's like, I'm like, thank you. She's Gonnavo. Hesaid thank you. What are you going to get for this? And Isaid, well, what do you mean? And she says, well, that'sgreat that you're getting the deal, but you know, you should begetting something else for this. And I said what do you mean? She'slike when you just don't give anything away. Right, if we're going to givethe customer something, they've got to give us something. It's got tobe a you know, a sale is both sides of the equation should bewinning, should be getting something. And I said, all right, whatdo you mean? She's like, well, you just figure out what you're goingto ask for a return and meeting all these expectations. And she saysit's only you understand and you think that it's of equal value and proportion towhat you're giving, then I'm happy, but I'm not going to tell youwhat if that is. And I think so many times as sellers that youknow, we saw ill will world business problems. We help organ excagations getto places they can't get on their own, and I think we've got to rememberthat and we've got to if we took the attitude that this is abusiness deal on both sides, we may approach to deal slightly different, butI think to do that you got that healthy pipeline right. Yeah, soBoik, I love that. I love that message, Patty Mac. There'stwo things that resonate for me in that is that pipeline cures all ills.It gives you courage, it gives you... gives you the ability to whatI call hold your water in a Yay sales in a sales engagement. Andthen the other thing that Linda shared with you that just really resonates for meis you give, you get. Yes, you give you get, and there'sso many people out there right now, including me when I was the youngersalesperson, that I thought that I gue, if I gave on discounting, that I got the deal. Well, that's not where it stopped, becauseif I got the deal, then they got my solutions, and sothat wasn't a good gift. Get, if I give a discount, thatI get the deal, and I would always tell you know myself. I'mlike give get, I gave the discount, I got the deal. No,that's not what that meant. Not. And if you don't believe the valueof your solutions, then why should anybody else, especially with the professionalprocurement person I think Linda's probably given us all advice that can last forever.Absolutely, if you don't value what you're giving a way, the person thatyou're giving it to will know that there's more to give. Absolutely, andthat's a bad. That's a bad deal for us. That's a bad dealfor us. Patti Mac you are an absolute joy, my friend. Youare from the day that you came to force management. I love to tellthe story of your initial presentation to us and just how badly you it wasso obvious how badly you wanted to do this and be good at this,and it was so obvious how great you are going to be. And Iknow the listeners that have experienced you and I hope that everybody gets a chanceto experience you. But you've just been an absolute God. Sent us tome to force management and I can't thank enough. So thanks for joining ustoday. Brother, keep crushing it. You too. Buddy talks to him. Of Force management. We're focused on transforming sales organizations into elite teams.Are Proven methodologies deliver programs that build company alignment and fuel repeatable revenue growth.Give your team the ability to execute the growth strategy at the point of sale. Our strength is our experience. The proof is in our results. Let'sget started. Visit US at force MANAGEMENTCOM. You've been listening to the audible readypodcast. To not miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favoritepodcast player until next time.

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